How am I feeling?
Marginalized.
... Let me explain.
As much as I hate to go into specifics because it makes everything into a much more personal argument, today
What do I think about this?
Well, to tell the truth, I feel kind of sad. And kind of angry, both for several reasons.
To begin with I'm going to make some common disclaimers (pay attention, I will reference these later):
I am against rape. I am against violence, truly, though you'd never know it unless you pay real attention. I have a wonderful girlfriend, have had for seven years and continuing. I was raised Catholic in a small town in northwest Indiana, though I'm not Catholic any longer (by my attestation, not by the church's). I have several female friends, at least a few of whom are close (and one of whom is my girlfriend). I have multiple female coworkers at or above my seniority and importance level. I am not in favor of male supremacy, female subjugation, the "glass ceiling", the "cutting of the rose" (don't eat first), harems, forced burkha and veil usage, binding of the feet, trading of females like cattle, or similarly denigrating practices. I am generally in favor of civil liberty over personal security. I am in favor of a broadly democratic and capitalist, yet flexible and thriving society.
Did I miss anything? I hope not. That said, I take ownership of my words (thank you
Now I am hopefully considered to be a real person and no longer one of the amorphous masses. Sadly, my post has a reduced connection to
My issue with
Let me get the parts of the post I agree with out of the way before I am irrevocably tossed onto a tangent and never return to it. The portion of the post that begins with the list of "don'ts" is trite, but acceptable. Those are the recommended methods for dealing with rape victims. The portions which exhort one to not be silent about date rape fall a little under a topic I will discuss later, but are for the most part okay.
The problem I have is with the greater part of the post - the long list of times and places to Not Rape Women. To elucidate the problems I have with it, I am going to give a brief (haha, what larks) rundown of my experiences in what we might as well call "rape education".
In the American school system, you begin learning about rape before you even truly have a clue what sex is - and probably even before you know the definition, thanks to most of the mainstream media. That's another rant, though. Suffice to say that "sex" and "rape" are two mystical terms paired and defined before you even have a soft mental framework of the subject matter to hang the definitions on - you learn about rape when sex is all giggles and blushes and ews and segregated classrooms so the boys learn the boy bits and the girls learn the girl bits.
It is an ironclad guarantee that every sex-ed class will cover rape and domestic violence, almost in the same breath. Often there's an entire chapter on it. And it is never a pretty chapter - the subject matter pretty much guarantees that. But the overtones to the book, the attitudes of the teachers, the awful, awful sex-ed films... The entire affair is saddled with an unassailable air of "BAD". Do the boys play light about it? They try. They act bored, distracted. It sinks in regardless - moreso if you're paying attention. It happens in middle school, it happens in high school. Sometimes more than once per school. My high school had the occasional mandatory convocation with the requisite horribly acted date rape movie. Some colleges have a required course which covers the material.
I received a formal education about rape three times - once in a Catholic side educational program (CCD), once in middle school, and once in high school, plus the aforementioned convocations. Informally, I learned about rape many, many times. Movies, books, news, all kinds of media. In fact, you would correctly ascribe my experience with rape education to be a socialization experience - that's what it was. The societal norms projected into my skull. Would I say my education was sufficient? I would say more than enough. I and many of the males I know quail before the very concept of rape or of being thought of as a rapist. The merest murmur of "no" would send me flying out the appropriate door before I could take another breath. That's societal pressure for you. Does it work? In a lot of cases (more on this later). Is it healthy? Fuck no. I should not have to consider a contract of consent before engaging in relations. That is something which should be sanely worked out by two individuals. And I firmly believe that it can be.
Here is where I and this post come into conflict. My whole life - quite nearly true in a literal sense, and certainly true for as long as I can feasibly remember - I have been taught to respect women. To believe rape as a bad thing. It has been repeated, again, and again, and again. Combined with the incredible forces of "sexual predators" and "sexual harassment", there is an incessant cultural tsunami that would drive me into sexual repression and social phobia if I were to let it (I will approach this after I conclude this section. Yes, there's a whole nother bit coming). For someone to post something that is little more than a list of the places and times one could rape somebody as if it is the cure to all the ills of rape is where, I am afraid, I begin to get angry. I will sum up my feelings.
If you are an intelligent and decent human being, the chances you already know what rape is and have a stance against it are incalculable. I do not believe there can be a person under such a huge rock that when they finally emerge, blinking, they are confronted with rape as something entirely new and do not have an opinion about it.
If you are a human being with a screw loose, someone telling you that rape is wrong is unlikely to help. Rape (the type that is not date rape, I'll get to the promised bit on that next) is a control issue. It is something you do to subvert someone, to place them beneath you. Saying "Don't do it!" like Hooty the Owl is not going to solve the problem that is wrong in their brain.
And date rape. I pondered long and hard on what I would say about this. Do I perceive date rape as wrong? Of course. Do I perceive getting a girl drunk with the explicit intent of sullying her virtue, as it were, is wrong? Yes. Do I think that, simultaneously, college date/alcohol rape is under-reported and over-reported? Yes.
Allow me a second to explain before I am torn apart; from the studies I have read coupled with my knowledge of the subject I have arrived at the belief that date rape victims often feel at fault, and do not report the incident. From my personal experience as a college male, my personal experience being absolutely drunk, coupled with news stories of false reports, I have arrived at the belief that it is possible to accuse a male of doing something which he had no intentions of doing prior to becoming wasted.
Is it difficult to separate the two? Of course. This is the nitty gritty, where there's nothing but he-said/she-said, and things like how she was dressed enter into the question. I don't condone it. I think that more directed education is needed in this area. I think that peer pressure needs to be applied like it is on drinking and smoking these days (if I remember my numbers both are down). But I think that it would be incredibly easy to blame a young adult for something he didn't truly want to do, either.
I think that this, and the the aforementioned tsunami, are both part of an overall demonization of males.
Now you see why I added so many disclaimers above. I am required to hedge my monologue with such stuff as that paragraph because the moment I suggest that the male gender might be taking more of a beating than it deserves, I am considered clearly insane.
I am going to move on from just rape into the general area of my argument, wherein we will broaden the scope into sexual predators, the other thing I really wanted to cover in this post. But first, more hedging.
Do I think that women are currently equal in society? No. There is work to be done on a variety of equality fronts: ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, and others. Do I think that this trend of accusing the male gender as a group is a worse problem than rape as a whole, or date rape in specific? No. I am not inciting a call to action, I am noting a trend which is occurring. Let me cite my other current examples before I continue.
Statistics, from what I have read, do seem to support the fact that "sexual offenders" are overwhelmingly male. Just as the percentage of rapists is. But this... there is an element of hysteria to this. In Iowa, they passed a law, which recently held up to court review, as that article shows. 2000 feet from playgrounds, schools, day care centers, etc. Frankly, in a state made mostly of small communities, housing which fits those restrictions is hard to find (it's an old article but the statistics were valid then and the issue of lack of housing is valid still). I will refrain from arguing about the law. I use it only as an example of the frenzy which is being worked up around this area of the Midwest. Nebraska is considering such laws, as well. Trick-or-treating around the city of Omaha this year was pitiful, as everyone took their children to a safe event at the zoo in daylight.
Looked at objectively, this law will not help. When viewed at in light of this new airline policy, however, it paints a disturbing trend, which I mentioned earlier. This law, this policy, the original post... they don't help. They are feel-good devices. The law will not stop (as the Typepad.com article even mentions) a sex offender who wants to do so from re-offending. The policy will not stop a person bent on offending from doing what they like with the child. The post will not stop someone dedicated to raping from doing so. If someone does not pick up on these socializations, which are far from obscure, then something as trivial as a law is not going to stop them. The best evidence of this is murder.
The law is a bit of an odd man out as it targets merely prior offenders, but the trend that is developing already views a lone male with a lone child as a suspicious pairing. What next? I merely illuminate the possible slippery slope. I do not enjoy being labeled as a potential anything - frankly, being judged by my past actions is enough. But I am, as a male, a potential rapist. A potential child molester. That's not cool. I cannot see how doing this helps in any manner - rather, it provides a shield for true rapists and child molesters. When you broaden the scope thusly, you lose all possibility of perspective, of rationality, of seeing true danger.
South Park did an excellent episode about molestation once (well, a couple, but one in particular) where the parents dutifully responded to each increasingly doom-slinging news report about child abductions, eventually sending their kids out into the wilds of Colorado to live because they weren't safe with their parents. That is precisely what's threatening to happen. The kind of absolute security that is being demanded for children cannot exist. If you have protected them from strangers, then you open them to the threat of potential rapists you know. If you cut your child off entirely, what the hell have you done to the poor human?
Demonizing a gender is unnecessary. It is a backlash to societal events which will prove, in the end, worse than the cure. You might feel the male gender is owed a few hundred or thousand years of oppression - if so you've crossed the rather broad line from equality to superiority. No equality movement should try to force the scale back the other way. It defeats the goddamn purpose. You cannot protect people - women, children, other men - with these actions. You do nothing except make it harder for people who are already complying with social mores to get along with their lives.
I have rambled enough and come to no end conclusion other than that these are events which disturb and anger and sadden me. I will close with a personal anecdote of a sort, because this is a personal topic. I am, after all, male.
(Edit: Fixed a grammatical error in here. Changed nothing else.)
I was a Boy Scout in my youth. I truly did enjoy helping people - helping people is in fact one of the few things I truly enjoy. When I am forced to ignore a crying apparently lost child in a mall or in Walmart, when I cannot actually even consider helping them because I am male, and I will receive at the very least a dirty look from the mother, if not from every passerby, and at the most I'll actually have to spend time actively convincing her I didn't intend to molest or otherwise harm her child - that is saddening to me. It is horrible that a woman must take concrete preventative actions to avoid being raped, but it is saddening that I have to worry about proactively justifying my gender. I don't equate the two - how could you - but I maintain that continuing to require the latter will not help the former.
End of Line.
November 30 2005, 05:35:12 UTC 6 years ago
It never fails to sicken me when people think that the best way of "defending women" is to paint men as horrible monsters, capable of anything.
News flash, technically speaking *anyone* could be a horrible monster, capable of anything.
And as you said, painting the entire gender as a bomb waiting to go off is NOT GOING TO HELP. It's a device born out of laziness and the desire to take the easy way out--all men are evil, there's no helping that, better just to keep them away from the "delicate" gender.
EW.
And on the date-rape thing, what irritates me the most is the "if a girl is drunk, don't rape her". (Quick disclaimer: I'm not talking about purposely getting a girl drunk for sex here)
When two people are wasted and do something which neither may have wanted, how, how how is it more one person's fault than the other? Why is the guy expected to have kept his head while being completely wasted? By implication it's saying that guys have such good judgment that they should be able to make those sorts of calls while drunk out of their mind, because girls in the same state can't or won't. And if not that, then it's just saying that if two people aren't capable of coherent thought, it's going to be the guy's fault no matter what. Um, what? I know that isn't what the majority of this post or the other posts are about, but I've seen and heard this opinion (yes, in this form) bruited about and frankly, it's stupid.
Sorry about going off, this is the third time the subject has come up in as many days and although the participants in those conversations have mostly had the same views as I have, it ticks me off that the demonization does happen, and it is real, and yes it's not as serious yet as the multitude of sexual crimes out there, but that doesn't mean it's right.
November 30 2005, 12:32:39 UTC 6 years ago
Granted, the issue really tends to arise more because it's easy for either side to claim they were wasted when they weren't, or that the other party was not when they were, and it's devilish to sort out what really happened at that point. So.
November 30 2005, 23:31:17 UTC 6 years ago
Suffice it to say that when I say I'm a misogynist, I'm not joking all that much.
November 30 2005, 13:39:48 UTC 6 years ago
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November 30 2005, 16:32:55 UTC 6 years ago
Demonizing a gender is unnecessary. It is a backlash to societal events which will prove, in the end, worse than the cure. You might feel the male gender is owed a few hundred or thousand years of oppression - if so you've crossed the rather broad line from equality to superiority. No equality movement should try to force the scale back the other way. It defeats the goddamn purpose.
Word. I've had similar feelings for a long time.
...I will receive at the very least a dirty look from the mother, if not from every passerby. At the most I'll actually have to spend time actively convincing her I didn't intend to molest or otherwise harm her child. That is saddening to me. It is horrible that a woman must take concrete preventative actions to avoid being raped, but it is saddening that I have to worry about proactively justifying my gender.
I can't even imagine what would happen if I tried to help a lost child in any way. People who know me see me for the teddy bear I am - my coworker trusts me to cart her 8 year old grandson around town, for crying out loud. But what does the average person out there see when they look at me?
- Young male. Thinks about sex once every n seconds.
- Physically imposing. Capable of overpowering the average person easily.
The loudly perpetuated societal stereotype of the first combined with the reality of the second would convict me even if all I did was sit on a nearby public bench with the hypothetical lost child and wait for its parents to arrive or a call to come over a PA.
but the trend that is developing already views a lone male with a lone child as a suspicious pairing
Bingo!
This got me thinking about taking Andrew around to various places. If nothing goes wrong, everything's fine; we look vaguely alike in that we're both white and blond, and most people would probably assume that we're brothers or otherwise related. But what if someone looks closely, sees he looks nothing like me, and gets suspicious of me walking around a mall with him? Or what if he starts acting up sometime and I have to put a hand on him to calm him down?
The minute the wrong person sees something they don't like and whips out their cell phone to call the police or runs to the local security guard, I'm guilty until proven innocent. Thank God I'd have ironclad backup from Mira in a case like that, because even though Andrew is a well-spoken child, his word wouldn't save me.
I do not enjoy being labeled as a potential anything - frankly, being judged by my past actions is enough. But I am, as a male, a potential rapist. A potential child molester. That's not cool.
And that's why I was angry about the whole topic. The example of mentally thinking about every n women as a victim is saddening. True statistics or not, true by whom you're looking at or not, it's a representation of a problem. It makes me think about how important it will be to raise my son - if I have one - to properly respect women, because that's all I can do as an individual whose message would not be widely paid attention to even if I chose to speak out.
The counter-example of mentally thinking about every n men as an assaulter, however, defeats the purpose. In viewing everyone as a potential rapist/murderer/you-name-it, the emphasis on situational judgment is removed, and mental labels are applied to people who, in overwhelming majority, do not deserve them.
I can think of no other words to describe that than "prejudicial".
December 2 2005, 04:13:18 UTC 6 years ago
- Young male. Thinks about sex once every n seconds.
- Physically imposing. Capable of overpowering the average person easily.
The loudly perpetuated societal stereotype of the first combined with the reality of the second would convict me even if all I did was sit on a nearby public bench with the hypothetical lost child and wait for its parents to arrive or a call to come over a PA.
See also: the Catholic church's current thing with gay priests as a reaction to the abuse scandal(s).
December 2 2005, 14:32:34 UTC 6 years ago
In viewing everyone as a potential rapist/murderer/you-name-it, the emphasis on situational judgment is removed, and mental labels are applied to people who, in overwhelming majority, do not deserve them.
It's not just that they don't deserve it - it's damaging to the attempt to prosecute and convict actual rapists, molesters, etc. In painting with such a broad (and admittedly prejudicial) brush, you overlook truly suspicious behavior. More importantly, you stop LOOKING for people actually engaging in that behavior - why bother thinking about it when you can just automatically say "That's a guy with a kid, something is up"?
December 2 2005, 06:18:49 UTC 6 years ago
See, before my current job, I worked with 4 year olds. One of our toilets had broke so we had very limited bathroom capacity. A little girl was about to pee her pants, so I took her back to the "storage bathroom" we had in another part of the facility (usually used by the teachers and used to store extra supplies for us mostly.) Since there was heavy stuff in there and we couldn't leave children unsupervised, I, as TA, took it upon myself to take the little girl to the bathroom. No big deal.
Next day, we're hearing about this irate parent in hysterics about a male teacher "being in the bathroom" with his daughter (I was looking away from the bathroom, just there in case something started to fall on the child. You know, storage closet and all). And about the "door shutting." (which is unthinkable). This is a parent that already asked about the place having male interns. And for pete sake, it being San Francisco State and all, there's probably a 50-50 chance of me being gay anyways. The whole center was up in arms about it and ended up with policy shifts for the women to be the only ones inside near the bathroom and everything.
But the interesting fact in this case isn't necessarily that the stereotype itself. It's that the class I was discussing this with it just paused. And one of the women finally spoke up (God bless her, but this is paraphrased since it was too long ago to recall) "I guess I never really thought about males being discriminated against, but you're right."
Working in my field, I have to work against the stereotype every day. Those parents who know me know my philosophy and know I would do nothing to hurt their children. It's too easy on so many levels, though, to be accused of something you're not. I've seen plenty of parents look at me with the eyes of "potential child molestor" written on my face, and *that* is not fair. But it is statistics.
Frankly, I do not like walking on eggshells in any situation. My case is certainly anecdotal and not necessarily cause to reduce any caution. But it does, as you said, keep a kind of feeling of repression around. I mean combine that with the fact that kids _just straight out treat you differently if you're male_ and you've got a recipe for disaster. Maybe all kids think I'm Santa Claus and all, but you feel you can't always be as affectionate with them as you're supposed to be because oh my god, what if a parent walks in and sees you HUGGING another child? Teachers treat you different. Parents treat you different.
Again, much like Cham, I don't know the NZ situation as well as I'd like. But frankly, saying "don't do this" to a rapist is like telling an arsonist not to play with matches. It doesn't *do* anything but upset those with the common sense and common decency to do what's right in the first place. But there will always be jerks and idiots who will continue to be jerks and idiots no matter what you do. So the best you can hope to accomplish is to avoid those dangerous jerks and murderous idiots.
Preaching to those who already know human decency is humiliating and demeaning. Preaching to those who have no human decency is pointless. The best we can hope to do is *stop* those with no human decency. And make sure that more in the next generation have it.
December 2 2005, 15:22:18 UTC 6 years ago
It's very easy to ignore discrimination in the first place. The fact that you (and I) are White Males makes it incredibly easy to do so. We're a part of the perceived majority - regardless of our actual positions or the actual majority/minority status. That's why I hedged so much at the beginning of my post; my cultural position makes it nearly impossible for me to speak out without it looking like I'm trying to propogate the "male aristocracy" and argue against the importance of rape.
Which I'm not doing, not in the slightest. But the cultural area we come from is very easy to discriminate and not think about it - "after all, they've been doing it for years to us!" And that's not right. All white people should not be persecuted for the minority repressions of a few. All males should not be persecuted for the rapes or molestations of a few.
And the reverse is true. All women should not be judged based on any attributes of a few of them. NO group should be judged like that - that's stereotyping in a nutshell.
Frankly, I do not like walking on eggshells in any situation.
It's not pleasant. Somewhere, buried in kpheobe's explosion of comments, is the discussion of how nervous a woman feels in an elevator full of men. I truthfully don't remember who brought it up, and I'd rather not go slogging back through all that in an attempt to find what was a small comment in a vast torrent of sentiment.
The reverse is true, to an extent - at this point in my life with things the way they are, if I find myself in an elevator full of women, I am as careful with my movements as if I were in a nitroglycerin warehouse. Nothing sudden, nothing construed as threatening. I don't mean to say that the situations are equal, because they're not. The fear, and the possible end results, are likely much worse for the woman. But that doesn't negate the fear I</I. feel. The slightest accidental bump could wind up as a harassment suit - or worse. Walking on eggshells is the perfect analogy.
December 2 2005, 15:23:18 UTC 6 years ago
But that doesn't negate the fear I. feel. The slightest accidental bump could wind up as a harassment suit - or worse. Walking on eggshells is the perfect analogy.
December 2 2005, 08:15:11 UTC 6 years ago
I don't have anything to really say that would be as eloquent or as encompassing as what was said in the above post and the following comments.
But I wholeheartedly agree. The moment we stop treating the abberants in society as abberants, the moment we forget the god damned fucking point.
Sort of like treating everyone as a potential terror suspect, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
December 2 2005, 15:40:01 UTC 6 years ago
Until we're sure you're not a terrorist, we're putting you in this cell.
Until we're sure you're not a rapist, we're locking you in this chastity belt.
Orwellian, yes. I'm taking the argument to the extreme to illustrate the similarity. That they both sound silly in the extreme is irrelevant (let's just avoid that cheap little debating trick).
Regardless. You're exactly right. We label abberants as such for a societal reason, and it defeats that reason to treat people who aren't like they are.
December 3 2005, 08:34:29 UTC 6 years ago
Women have been "demonized" - or at the very least, "marginalized" - for so many generations at this point in Western history that the expectation is built into your psyche during your formative years. If your parents don't teach you to expect second-class treatment and punishments for winning against boys in fair competition, you learn it in school. You learn it from friends. You learn is from the media.
Now men are feeling "demonized" - or at the very least "marginalized" - for the simple crime of being a certain gender. At the risk of sacrificing tact for complete honesty (which I think at this point is more crucial), I have to admit a part of me really wants to smirk and say: welcome to our world.
But I know two wrongs don't make a right. More fear, more shame, more frustration can only lead to more cloudy thinking, more confusion, more loss of judgment.
However, since it's already on us, I think using it to start a dialog is the best thing we can do. I don't know erbie, but I thought her post was an attempt to get at why men are feeling demonized about rape if they aren't inclined to commit it. Kinda like asking why someone's scared to let the police have a carte blanche search of their house if they've done nothing wrong. You've made a good argument for why a perfectly innocent man might feel demonized (just as I would argue an innocent person has reason to worry about the police searching their home).
Let the dialog continue, and maybe those of us who have no desire to demonize anybody will finally come together against those who do. Because it never should have been men against women, or women against men: it should always have been people who respect life and liberty against those who don't.
December 3 2005, 16:47:57 UTC 6 years ago
Thanks for your comments.
I'll be replying to this later in the day, and for now just wanted to mention that I'm not ignoring it.
December 4 2005, 00:48:10 UTC 6 years ago
I certainly can't disagree with your point about women being marginalized. Like I said, equality movements have a long way to go.
I would say, however, that I can think of only one violent crime the blame for which has been folded over onto the entire female gender regardless of actual blame; the slow poisoning craze in Italy and France, which wasn't really a "woman's crime" but was seen as such for the brief period in which it was en vogue.
Granted, my knowledge of history is very speckled if needlessly deep in spots, so if I'm wrong I would love a correction.
I think you summed up the point of my post nicely; to offer a reason why an intelligent socially average male would be upset at being accused like that. I didn't intend to tackle the entirety of the topic of rape or even offer too much in the way of suggestions, and I certainly didn't intend for this to be the keystone of the whole debate.
It was a response to what seemed to be a lack of understanding why some males would be upset about
Let the dialog continue, and maybe those of us who have no desire to demonize anybody will finally come together against those who do. Because it never should have been men against women, or women against men: it should always have been people who respect life and liberty against those who don't.
Hear, hear.
December 4 2005, 01:23:11 UTC 6 years ago
But if you want violent crime, actually there is one example of a demonizing assumption about women, and it has to do with the deaths of children.
I remember about 15 years ago in TN, one hot summer saw 5 cases of people accidentally leaving their babies to boil to death in cars while they went to work or went shopping or whatever. In 4 cases, the very young mothers went to jail. In the 5th, the prominent businessman father received lots of press for his restaurant chain, sympathy cards for his loss, and was sent merrily on his way, poor thing.
At the same time Andrea Yates killed her children because she was so insane she should have been in a mental institution for her own safety, a man in Oregon killed his whole family. The OR case almost failed to make headlines, but when it did, the poor man was just stressed, you know. Andrea Yates, OTOH, was a freaking devil woman from hell.
And how about that "welfare mother", who lurks in the sewer making babies she doesn't love just to drain your tax dollars?
But for a much better example, how demonized can you get if you're to blame for a rape?
December 4 2005, 01:33:22 UTC 6 years ago
I was trying to stick with modern examples above, but if you're open to historical: women were exclusively to blame for adultery, in many societies. Whether they were the married party or the man was, it was the woman who was branded, stuck in the iron maiden, etc.
And there's also witchcraft. Alleged witches were blamed and executed for anything in a community from an outbreak of disease to crop failure. It seems the "witch" was never a "warlock" - men were only accused of being warlocks if they tried to defend an alleged witch.
December 4 2005, 02:19:51 UTC 6 years ago
I'll take the definition of "demonized" you intended to use, then, and in that case I'll agree with your Devil's Advocate post.
I won't go as far as agreeing that the examples you give are 100% true for all cultures, though, mostly out of a personal belief that they aren't. I don't have ready proof either way. They are good examples, though.
With the exception of the witch issue - as far as I have read on the subject, the American Colonial witch trials (Salem, etc) were predominately female, but in the several hundred year long persecution of witches in Europe, the inclusion of males varied from country to country and depending on the time period (Finland was noted for having a high number of male witches). Granted, the height of the witch-hunts involved primarily females, so your point stands in general. (My source is primarily Charles Mackay's Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds).
December 4 2005, 17:29:31 UTC 6 years ago
No, they're not. Neither is the demonization you're talking about - in some cultures, rapists rape without any real fear of retribution.
With the exception of the witch issue - as far as I have read on the subject, the American Colonial witch trials (Salem, etc) were predominately female, but in the several hundred year long persecution of witches in Europe, the inclusion of males varied from country to country and depending on the time period (Finland was noted for having a high number of male witches). Granted, the height of the witch-hunts involved primarily females, so your point stands in general. (My source is primarily Charles Mackay's Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds).
My studies focused on the American witch trials, and took place over 15 years ago, so I honestly don't remember my sources. In my studies, I never found a case where the first person to be accused in a community was a male. In fact, it seemed males were only ever accused after they stood by a female witch suspect. In many cases, the witch trials in the Americas were a handy way to get hold of property that had somehow, blasphemously fallen into the hands of a woman. So there was no need to include men, who had a God-given right to own, unless they attempted to thwart the process. Was it different in Europe? Were men ever the first to be accused in a community?
Oh, I thought of another example of the demonization of women: abortion. Have you ever listened to Bible-thumping Protestants* go on about women and abortion, as if women reproduce asexually, then inexplicably terminate the offspring? I can't tell you how many debates I've gone into, not to argue for or against abortion laws, but just to get people to acknowledge that all pregnancies are caused by both a man and a woman - only to be handed shocking logical fallacies, ranging from "Men can't help being seduced by women" to "it's the duty of women to make sure sex takes place only within marriage" to more vague statements that don't really apply. I came away convinced that some people just really need to believe women are the sole cause of abortion, so they didn't need sensible arguments.
*I'm distinguishing Protestants from Catholics not for YOUR benefit, but because I've always felt it's an important distinction. In my experience, Catholics are far more like Jesus: more tolerant of other religions, other races and sinners in general. Catholicism also seems to impart a basic respect for women (maybe through veneration of Mary and female saints?), which is more than lacking in the pop culture version of Protestantism that's taken over in the past 20 years.
December 4 2005, 18:26:42 UTC 6 years ago
In the United States, at least, abortion is entirely the woman's decision. That's the basic idea behind abortion: It's the woman's body, and she can do what she wants with it. The man does not enter into this equation. Because of that, it *is* her fault if she decides to go and have an abortion. Again, I am not saying that abortion is a Bad Thing here (nor am I saying it's Good), but the fact that a man is needed to get a woman pregnant doesn't mean that he has any say in whether she gets an abortion or not.
Whether or not pregnancy leads to abortion is the woman's choice. It makes sense for a religious group to hold her responsible.
Anonymous
December 4 2005, 19:13:45 UTC 6 years ago
I need to preface this by saying that I am pro-choice and believe that it should be the woman's sole decision, given that it is her body.
That said, as Arwen noted, in the United States (and Canada), it is the woman who chooses whether or not to have an abortion. Obviously the father of the foetus may exert some influence on her, but it remains the mother's sole decision.
I understand the point that the man bears equal responsibility for the pregnancy which necessitated the abortion, and thus that he bears indirect responsibility for the abortion. But this understanding is possible because I accept the concept that an unwanted pregnancy can necessitate an abortion.
If you proceed from the opposite premise that an unwanted pregnancy should not lead to an abortion (and this is the basic assumption of the "pro-life" movement), then the man's shared responsibility for the unwanted pregnancy ends there and does not lead to responsibility for the abortion, because the former should not lead to the latter.
Nicolas
6 years ago